A masterclass in legal optimization – designing useful applications

Tim McDonald and I have known each other for over a decade. We used to sneak out for afternoon coffees in the lobby of Angel Place in Sydney. Tim has always been a man of many talents. In the last couple of years, Tim put together an automation and optimization project where a few changes led to 85% of procurement contracts becoming self-serviced by his business team, so they never need any intervention from his legal team at all. The result was that the speed of procurement improved by three to four times compared to prior to his automation and optimization project!

In this video conversation, Tim shares the incredible story of how he transformed his business and implemented the process and technology improvements.

We spoke about:

• why did he start working on legal automation?

• how to automate legal and procurement processes – moving from Word documents drafted by lawyers to self-service questions for business folks

• how he defined success for his optimization project

• how he picked the top ten things to automate in his project

• how he designed an effective user interface

• how he decided what information to display in the user interface

• what to build into a user interface for legal contracts in order to drive the desired outcome

• how automation software can also be used as an important educational platform

• what can we do to ensure there is adoption?

• how do you move a new product from an idea to “business as usual”?

• how did Tim start building his innovation project and gain internal support and momentum?

Tim wrapped up our conversation with a story of how he used his document automation platform to product a thousand documents and pushed them into DocuSign.

Watch the whole conversation below. It is definitely worth your time.

Transcript of conversation

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(Note: transcript is automatically generated, and may contain misspellings and typographical errors)

00:00

welcome to another unscripted casual

00:01

conversation and we have

00:03

the privilege today of talking to tim

00:05

mcdonald tim mcdonald

00:06

is the general counsel of construction

00:10

australia for landlace tim did i get

00:13

that right

00:14

got it now thanks harris hi great to see

00:17

you again

00:17

hey can you tell us a little more about

00:19

what you do

00:20

um because i think it's going to be

00:22

really interesting to set the framework

00:24

of what we want to talk about a little

00:26

bit later

00:27

sure so um yes i look after

00:30

the the legal function for the

00:32

construction businesses

00:34

of landlace in australia as the title

00:36

suggests

00:37

um and that canvas has a few different

00:40

businesses

00:41

um but primarily um you know

00:44

it's looking after large projects in

00:47

australia or into urban

00:48

regen and therefore you know

00:52

projects like barangaroo commercial

00:55

office towers

00:57

stadiums hospitals um all the way

01:00

through to

01:01

o m services so looking after roads and

01:03

tunnels and things like that

01:04

so everything that goes along with those

01:07

sorts of

01:08

projects obviously things go wrong so

01:10

i'm a transactional person

01:12

you know constantly working on on new

01:14

transactions but also

01:16

dealing with the issues that inevitably

01:18

follow in in that space

01:20

and so it's i'd like to call it issues

01:22

rich most of the time lots of

01:24

interesting things going on

01:26

i mean that's what i enjoy got a really

01:28

talented team of lawyers

01:30

um who are all very good at what they do

01:33

so

01:33

it makes it a pleasure that's really

01:36

cool um

01:37

so tim you're quite well known in the

01:40

australian

01:41

innovation space in the for the legal

01:43

tech now

01:44

obviously that's not your core role

01:46

because you are the general counsel for

01:48

construction australia

01:49

and you're doing all this innovation

01:52

sort of on the side um

01:54

how much of your time is divided between

01:57

your day job

01:58

versus your innovation job so i i

02:01

started

02:02

i guess dabbling in the legal tech space

02:06

a few years ago um and i really came

02:09

from a

02:10

place of um passion um

02:13

in that you know it was clear to me

02:16

doing various roles at lent lease

02:17

and i did spend some time in the

02:19

business in a commercial role

02:21

that really opened my my eyes up to

02:24

where the pinch points were

02:26

for both the business and the legal team

02:28

and i became absolutely convinced

02:30

that we had to do things better

02:34

and so i perhaps foolishly

02:37

um decided to pursue this a project

02:40

internally to try and transform how we

02:43

do things

02:44

um in the procurement space particularly

02:46

when it comes to

02:48

contracts um because that was a sort of

02:50

natural affinity of mine

02:52

um and so it has become a serious

02:56

side hustle um within landlace for me

03:00

it is something that i do in the gaps

03:03

and it's often something that i do

03:06

frankly late at night once everything

03:08

else is

03:08

kind of calmed down but i guess i'm

03:12

passionate enough about the cause that i

03:14

managed to find

03:15

time to do it no matter what so

03:18

i will in the middle of all of the chaos

03:20

of being

03:21

gc and everything that comes with it i

03:23

will take an automation meeting

03:25

smack bang in the middle and carve out

03:28

carve at that time because

03:30

i think it's really important unless you

03:32

do find that time to

03:34

to try and move forward with these sorts

03:35

of things you're just going to be stuck

03:38

in the bog

03:38

and never never crawl out so

03:41

and then getting that critical mass and

03:44

seeing progress

03:45

has frankly fanned the flames for me um

03:49

to make me keep going to make me a dog

03:52

with a bone to try and make this project

03:53

succeed

03:54

tell us more um about like exactly what

03:57

that project involved because i know

03:59

only the tiniest tip of the iceberg on

04:02

this one

04:03

so what's the objective project what's

04:06

been involved

04:08

what was the state before the project

04:11

and how has it ended up today

04:13

um my project's in the scale of

04:15

everything that landlace does in the

04:16

construction world

04:17

it's just a small part um but it's an

04:20

important part

04:21

in many ways loneliness is

04:25

is built on on procurement so we don't

04:27

actually we don't self-perform

04:30

construction work we sub-contract it out

04:32

into the market

04:34

therefore we we we go and sign

04:37

tens of thousands of subcontracts every

04:40

year to deliver our projects

04:42

um subcontracts and consultancy

04:44

agreements etc

04:46

so you know rewind

04:50

a couple years ago you know that

04:53

in terms of producing the subcontract

04:55

documentation

04:56

you know getting it out to market you

04:58

know assessing

05:00

tenders making amendments negotiation

05:04

through to execution setting up projects

05:07

with their special conditions

05:09

to suit you know the requirements of

05:11

clients etc

05:12

that was all very manual um it was very

05:15

analog

05:16

um you know and the legal team was just

05:19

absolutely swamped

05:21

dealing with requests from projects from

05:24

the business

05:25

to negotiate amend unlock

05:28

templates etc it was just madness so

05:32

the idea of this project is to try and

05:34

automate as much of that

05:36

process as possible so we're moving away

05:39

from

05:40

working in word documents when it comes

05:42

to

05:43

production negotiation execution of

05:46

subcontracts and consultancy agreements

05:48

trying to move all the way through to

05:51

self-service by the business

05:54

web-based questionnaires to take a

05:57

document through

05:58

from issuing a draft market to assessing

06:01

tenders and assessing risk

06:04

seeking approvals internally and then

06:06

producing a document which conforms with

06:09

those with the final negotiations the

06:12

approved positions etc

06:14

um and frankly success is

06:18

if it doesn't touch the legal team at

06:19

all awesome

06:22

my legal team my legal team does not

06:24

want to nor need to see

06:27

low risk subcontracts occasionally it

06:29

will need to see

06:30

the tricky ones um the

06:33

the aim was to try to achieve an 80 20

06:36

90 10 kind of rule

06:37

where we build in enough functionality

06:39

into our

06:40

automated templates et cetera and the

06:42

process so the business could truly

06:44

self-service

06:45

um and the the aim is to not ever have

06:49

to go into a word document

06:50

um fast forward to where we are now we

06:53

are

06:54

um we are using this platform

06:58

on our live projects um it's now biu

07:01

in australia um and

07:04

we're so we're still achieving scale

07:06

because our projects

07:07

we haven't pushed it into all of our

07:09

legacy projects that projects often take

07:11

years to deliver

07:12

but certainly everything that comes

07:14

online now

07:15

is in system so we're using on more and

07:18

more

07:19

projects of um of scale and complexity

07:23

and what's really interesting is that

07:25

we're all ready

07:26

even though we're still building out

07:28

options in our platform

07:30

we're already seeing um only 15

07:33

of our subcontracts now coming to the

07:35

legal team for some sort of intervention

07:38

wow 85 are fully self-serviced

07:42

wow so that's either either a standard

07:45

template

07:46

or a standard template which has been

07:49

augmented through clause bank options

07:52

and and associated approval workflows

07:55

so so the users are experiencing

07:58

um the data the data shows that it's

08:02

three to four times faster to deal with

08:05

the procurement side of things

08:07

procurement documentation side of things

08:09

in system than it was in the old old

08:11

school method

08:13

and that's and that's before you take

08:14

into account things like

08:16

a signature work which can you know

08:19

crunch your

08:20

um your time scale even further

08:24

i am so impressed color me impressed

08:28

um whatever color that might be i'm

08:30

sorry it probably sounds cooler than it

08:32

actually is

08:33

um but i i'm into it because uh

08:36

you know it you know it might seem like

08:38

a small they're small wins but

08:40

they make big impacts on on a lot of

08:42

people

08:43

i i think it's not a small win at all

08:45

and i'm a i'm a data kind of guy

08:47

so for me when you say 85 percent of

08:50

contracts don't even have to go to a

08:51

legal team

08:52

my my eyebrows rise

08:55

and i have lots of questions stemming

08:58

from that

08:59

the first one is statistically and

09:02

from a data perspective how much

09:05

deviation do you have

09:07

in these 85 of contracts so do they

09:10

deviate much from the standard form

09:12

do you um have you got a massive

09:16

bank of possibilities catering for all

09:18

of the outcomes

09:20

what happened no no

09:24

there is variability for sure but

09:27

what we focused on was probably picking

09:30

the top 10 things that need to change

09:33

based on historical data based on

09:37

what we know that the legal team was

09:39

fielding

09:40

um in terms of the market always asks

09:43

for these things

09:44

yep now let's there might and we so we

09:47

focused on coding those things really

09:49

well

09:49

yep including having options within

09:52

those tin

09:55

so under the banner of x call it

09:59

liquidated damages for delay we've got

10:01

all of the

10:02

permutations and combinations that we

10:04

would commonly see out there

10:06

coded because that will come up every

10:08

time

10:09

what's what's surprising is that

10:13

we fully expected to have to go and

10:14

build out

10:16

those those top ten i guess to give us a

10:19

decent start

10:20

but we fully expected the the full

10:22

development of the

10:23

optionality menu which was going to

10:26

take some time we thought that was going

10:28

to be required to get to those sorts of

10:30

numbers in terms of the

10:32

you know 85 15 kind of split what's been

10:35

interesting is that

10:36

this hasn't been required so far but um

10:39

the other interesting comment i'd make

10:41

um

10:42

in terms of we put a lot of time into

10:46

the user interface in our platform

10:50

and the users for us um and i don't know

10:53

you don't like that term

10:54

too much horace but the users i think i

10:57

think the term user is

10:59

is hilarious in the context so

11:02

for the audience tim and i before this

11:04

recording started

11:05

uh we were talking about how there are

11:07

only two industries in the world that

11:08

refer to their customers as

11:10

users the first is a tech industry and

11:12

the second

11:13

tim drug dealers obviously obviously

11:19

but then the users and the user

11:22

experience and the user interface

11:24

we spent a lot of time working on that

11:27

the look and feel to the users who are

11:31

you know individuals on our projects um

11:33

who are responsible for procurement

11:35

once you start deviating from a standard

11:38

template

11:38

it starts to the platform starts to get

11:41

shouty

11:42

at you it starts to pop ups

11:45

red text warnings

11:48

and then it then it then steps up to uh

11:51

you know pop-ups warnings

11:52

oh and then you actually need to seek

11:54

approval for this again

11:56

fairly shouty um it's a two

11:59

it's a two-step process so if something

12:01

requires an approval

12:03

it will flag it when you trip it but

12:06

then we'll re-ask you at the end

12:08

do you really want to seek approval for

12:09

this and will actually ask you to hit a

12:11

button

12:11

seeking that approval and then ask you

12:13

for rational

12:14

rationale as to why so i think that kind

12:18

of escalating

12:20

escalating you know uh level of

12:24

shoutiness coming off the screen um

12:27

actually actually

12:28

helps the user to understand you know

12:31

how how significant those departures are

12:33

in terms of risk

12:34

change in risk and that helps in

12:37

decision making

12:38

and drives behaviors it's brilliant um

12:42

and i'm there's so much we can pry into

12:44

but

12:45

i instead i'm going to move the topic

12:47

too

12:48

oh and i should say horace yes just so

12:50

please because it sounds like we're kind

12:52

of

12:52

berating our users the other really

12:55

important part of that is

12:57

not to just say you can't do it

13:00

it's to say well you can do it but

13:04

bear these things in mind and here's why

13:07

it actually gives you

13:09

actually gives you the guidance that

13:10

sits behind why that is an issue

13:14

as well it's actually an educational

13:16

tool at the same time

13:17

because otherwise it just becomes this

13:19

black black box which is just

13:21

the system says no so it's an informed

13:25

still an informed choice you have

13:28

obviously put a lot of thought and a lot

13:30

of

13:31

care into designing the system and it it

13:34

shows in your numbers i think it's

13:36

a testament of how well you've done um

13:39

but i want to

13:40

take the conversation to a slightly

13:41

different point because i was on

13:43

whatsapp with a friend of mine and he

13:46

is going through a sort of automation

13:48

project for his

13:50

organization at the moment and the

13:52

question he asked was

13:54

at the moment automation of contracts is

13:57

really focused on

13:58

kind of your high volume low value

14:01

documents the ones that

14:03

you know keep on happening day after day

14:06

after day

14:07

and so there's very obvious value from

14:10

automating it and

14:14

we can kind of leave aside the obvious

14:15

question of what about

14:17

low volume high value contracts let's

14:19

leave that aside for now but then focus

14:20

on this question

14:22

which is how do you

14:26

decide what information to give the user

14:29

on the interface

14:31

and you have kind of two broad camps to

14:34

choose from

14:35

you can give user very specific drafting

14:39

which tend to be pretty inflexible

14:43

or you can give users the conceptual

14:46

rationale

14:47

and then let them come up with the exact

14:49

language themselves

14:51

what do you think of those two

14:54

approaches

14:55

and what would be the factual

14:57

circumstances that will be more

14:58

appropriate for each one

15:00

so specific drafting versus uh

15:02

conceptual guidance

15:04

i guess it all comes down to who the

15:06

audience is

15:08

so you know if i just draw parallels

15:12

with

15:12

the platform i was talking about before

15:14

where

15:15

the those using the system the users

15:19

um are not legal people they're not

15:22

legally trained

15:23

and so absolutely go for conceptual

15:26

every day of the week

15:28

oh hang on you're going to say give them

15:30

specific drafting so they can drag and

15:32

drop

15:34

no they don't they don't want

15:37

to engage with the drafting they don't

15:39

care about the drafting they only care

15:41

about the concepts

15:42

because at the end at the end of the day

15:44

it's what the drafting means that's

15:46

important

15:47

and the less if you can communicate that

15:49

meaning

15:50

in fewer words then that's going to be

15:52

more efficient

15:54

but if it's but if it's but if it's the

15:58

if it's if the user is the legal team

16:02

and there are times when this is the

16:04

case

16:05

then you'll never get a lawyer convinced

16:09

by a concept they're going to want to

16:11

say the actual words

16:13

otherwise they won't trust the system so

16:17

if if you've got a legal person engaging

16:20

with the system

16:21

then um more details is better

16:25

they won't they will want to see the

16:26

drafting that sits behind their options

16:29

that is so interesting because i think

16:31

we'll we'll be thinking about two

16:32

different um interfaces there

16:36

you seemed like you were thinking about

16:38

the interface

16:39

of the questionnaire whereas i was

16:42

thinking about the

16:43

interface of you already have a document

16:46

and what do you want to present to your

16:48

user so that they can change what's in

16:50

the document

16:52

so interesting so even even the user

16:55

interface

16:56

influences the design decision between

16:59

how much detail do you give and what

17:01

what sort of information is most useful

17:04

to the audience performing that task

17:07

i think so i mean it depends on how much

17:12

the document itself is important to the

17:14

particular

17:15

user you're talking about you know if

17:17

the output is very much the document

17:19

then there needs to be that option to

17:21

see the detail for sure

17:23

otherwise there won't be enough trust in

17:25

the in the output

17:27

and and i want to ask you a question

17:28

which i think flows on from

17:30

something you said earlier and that is

17:32

it's become bau

17:35

what was the adoption process like in

17:37

terms of

17:38

going from hey this is a fandangle new

17:40

thing

17:41

to this is now bau good question

17:45

um very slow burn

17:48

and so very slow slow

17:52

um and methodical um

17:55

you know in a large organization like

17:57

landlace a global organization

18:00

complex matrix structure lots of

18:02

stakeholders etc

18:04

it's been you know a three and a half

18:07

year journey

18:08

at least to get to this point

18:11

um where we are now you know going

18:14

forward

18:15

scaling in australia so applied

18:18

all of the when i i just sort of

18:20

stumbled across these principles as i

18:22

was going i made tons of mistakes along

18:24

the way

18:25

but in at the end of the day what ended

18:28

up being

18:28

the pathway for me and and my project

18:32

um i should say our project because we

18:35

are a little team

18:36

um is all the usual steps started with i

18:39

started with a proof of concept so

18:42

i i knew exactly you know i had the what

18:45

i thought was the vision for this thing

18:47

um but to have that converse to have

18:50

proper conversations with stakeholders

18:52

i knew i needed something tangible so i

18:54

took

18:55

five thousand dollars of legal team

18:58

budget

18:59

um i don't know i can't remember if it

19:01

was entertainment or

19:02

uh education just took that money

19:05

and built something really simple which

19:07

was representative

19:09

of the vision it looked like it worked

19:13

didn't really work it was just to

19:14

represent something tangible that

19:16

represented

19:17

what the end state could look like that

19:19

was that was then the starting point for

19:21

conversation with many

19:22

many stakeholders that ended up being

19:24

turning into a

19:26

shark tank style you know pitch

19:29

internally

19:29

so found found that there are parts of

19:33

the organization that have some funding

19:34

for innovation projects

19:37

and so built out um ended up conver

19:41

you know pitching an mvp

19:44

minimum viable product so getting a

19:48

little bit more funding to build

19:49

something slightly bigger

19:50

slightly more tangible slightly more

19:52

persuasive which actually validated

19:55

you know roi etc

19:58

just and just kept growing so lots of

20:00

pictures lots of meetings lots of

20:02

stakeholder engagement with all of the

20:04

people that will need to engage with

20:06

with this thing ended up with proof of

20:07

concept minimum available product

20:10

and then pilot one pilot two

20:13

and then commitment to scale then we

20:16

started scaling

20:17

um so it was very much that kind of

20:19

innovation curve

20:20

yep that you see on lots of your ict

20:23

projects

20:24

and i i reckon i probably spent more

20:27

time

20:28

doing meetings and stakeholder

20:29

engagement pitches

20:31

trying to get funding keep funding et

20:34

cetera than i did actually

20:36

building the platform itself tim you've

20:39

you've described

20:40

the entrepreneur journey but you might

20:43

be what people call the entrepreneur

20:45

because all of this was done within

20:47

the organization and it that's just

20:50

sketching

20:50

hey i didn't make it up i wish i did i

20:52

would i'd patent it

20:54

[Laughter]

20:56

um but well it's funny we had a startup

20:59

mentality

21:00

and we we wore that as a badge of honor

21:02

yeah

21:03

um there were points in time for this

21:06

project

21:06

where we we had a when we were in the

21:08

really intense build phase

21:10

we maybe had sort of four or five people

21:12

in the team working on this thing

21:14

we were homeless we would literally

21:16

wander the floors

21:18

trying to find somewhere in the office

21:20

to squat

21:21

and we would just like take over a

21:22

neighborhood and that would be our

21:24

little start-up

21:25

bubble which is kind of cool when it was

21:26

in the context of a global organization

21:30

yeah yeah oh man i i wish i could have

21:33

been there i would have been

21:34

you know sipping my coffee watching you

21:36

guys work it would have brought me great

21:37

joy

21:40

hey there were times when i was i was

21:42

very stressed about

21:44

whether we were actually going to be

21:45

able to pull this thing off um yeah

21:47

because you know i sold a dream and then

21:50

all of a sudden

21:51

the the hardest bit was actually oh my

21:53

god i've got some money to actually go

21:55

and do this

21:56

i hope this works i think what we can't

21:59

forget as well

22:00

is you did all of this while you're

22:02

still the general counsel

22:04

for construction australia well you know

22:06

what i think i've had three

22:07

three role changes over the time that

22:09

i've been doing this project paris

22:11

so when i started it i was a commercial

22:14

and risk manager and then

22:15

and then various other legal roles so

22:17

it's it's it's actually the one thing

22:19

that's remained constant

22:22

few years for me so so tell us

22:25

what do you think is on the horizon for

22:28

this project and what do you think is on

22:30

the horizon

22:31

for legal technology generally

22:34

uh so for this project um you know now

22:38

now that we sort of cracked how to do it

22:40

and we know that

22:41

the business loves it um they just want

22:44

more of it

22:45

the adoption has been fantastic and

22:47

that's because it's intuitive so now

22:48

we're just looking at what else we can

22:49

do

22:50

um so beyond scaling it you know we're

22:53

looking at

22:54

various integrations with our other

22:56

systems

22:57

so you know aggregation of data

23:00

reporting

23:02

um you know stitching it together with

23:04

other systems to make it more efficient

23:06

tend to data in data out

23:09

those sorts of things also you know

23:11

working with the other agents

23:13

so i'm lucky in my role to connect in

23:16

regularly with the other regions so

23:19

we're now looking at what we can do in

23:21

the us the uk

23:22

and asia um in in in the platform we've

23:25

built and

23:26

how that how we might take the same

23:28

philosophy and roll it out elsewhere

23:30

i say roll it out it's more than a roll

23:32

out it'd be a complete new build

23:34

um but um but look i guess the project

23:38

what what's more exciting is i guess

23:40

what it means in terms of

23:42

you know that the legal team and

23:45

and thinking in a more innovative way

23:48

it becomes an addiction once once you've

23:50

had some runs on the board

23:52

becomes a way of thinking and so for me

23:55

it's

23:56

it's not really about the platform

23:57

anymore it's about it's more about the

23:59

philosophy of

24:01

actually being able to make some change

24:03

if you have enough

24:04

drive to do it um and so

24:08

that's something that the entire team

24:11

works towards now it's it's now part of

24:13

our dna

24:15

um so we're looking at all sorts of

24:16

other cool things we can do

24:18

we we use this platform for other little

24:21

side projects

24:22

that we just do in our own little bubble

24:25

give you a really good example you know

24:27

at the heart of our tool

24:29

is a very powerful document automation

24:33

tool program um you know what

24:37

we um all of a sudden had a need to

24:39

produce

24:40

and execute a thousand

24:44

um uh deeds of novation recently

24:48

mm-hmm and rather than engaging it

24:52

we don't have the resources to produce

24:54

you know that sort of volume of

24:56

documents

24:57

um rather than engaging in an external

24:59

external law firm at great cost

25:01

to go and produce those thousand deeds

25:02

and ovation

25:04

we spend a little bit of time setting up

25:07

coding those documents

25:08

setting up an excel spreadsheet and then

25:11

producing those documents automatically

25:13

using the same system um and so go to

25:16

whoa

25:17

in the space of a week we can produce

25:19

those documents and then push them into

25:20

docusign

25:23

so you know lots of little flywheel

25:26

benefits of

25:27

having that sort of capability and

25:30

that's not something we

25:31

sort of broadcast as a as a project per

25:34

se

25:35

just we just don't do it and that's

25:37

really cool

25:38

and it sounds like you've you've now

25:40

established this base

25:41

this foundation so that for other sort

25:45

of efficiency

25:46

projects other sorts of automation

25:48

projects

25:49

you can use this platform to what you

25:52

say flywheel to create that momentum

25:54

they are little wins um but

25:57

sometimes the little winds are just as

25:59

important as the big wins

26:01

being able to do a start to finish

26:02

little project

26:04

in a different way to you know what our

26:06

competitors might be doing that's

26:08

that's an edge um so

26:11

and when it's making when it's actually

26:13

making

26:14

lives of the team easier yep that's

26:17

that's

26:17

success we're not just going and doing

26:19

stuff just because we can

26:21

because it's cool um it is actually

26:24

gonna

26:24

you know save time i mean that people

26:27

aren't having to do

26:28

tons of manual you know work which is

26:31

extremely unsatisfying so that so that's

26:33

cool in itself

26:34

but i do think i mean to your other part

26:36

of the question was the legal

26:38

um industry generally um

26:41

i you know the legal the legal industry

26:45

is

26:45

pretty immature when it comes to tech

26:47

when you look compared to

26:49

pretty much any other industry um but i

26:52

think there is a hell of a lot of

26:53

interest out there there's a lot of

26:54

there's lots of desire to do things

26:56

differently

26:57

so i do think i do think there is a bit

26:59

of a groundswell

27:01

um pushing towards true innovation in

27:04

the legal world

27:05

i think coverts been a bit of a catalyst

27:08

for that as well

27:09

definitely even if even if in the short

27:11

term

27:12

you know finding budget for for big cool

27:15

new projects is slightly harder i think

27:17

once we get through

27:19

that that sort of covert you know

27:22

um challenge i think i think lots of

27:25

organizations will come bursting out of

27:26

the blocks

27:28

trying to drive change and that's that's

27:29

pretty exciting i

27:31

am first of all just so impressed by

27:34

what you've done

27:35

and i want to say thank you so much for

27:37

spending time chatting with us

27:40

i do want to share one piece of wisdom

27:42

which i promised

27:43

that i would do in my next blog video

27:47

and that is tim do you know the right

27:49

way of pulling off a post-it note

27:53

yes i do oh okay okay

27:56

tell us because first straight down

27:59

don't reveal don't reveal that was too

28:02

soon

28:04

well i promise someone no no no no that

28:08

was great

28:08

so i promised someone um alex robertson

28:11

alex if you're watching this

28:12

you do not pull from the corner you pull

28:16

as tim said

28:17

with a smiley face straight down

28:21

and that ends today's uh casual very

28:24

casual conversation

28:25

ending with a tip about post-it notes um

28:28

tim

28:28

thank you once again for joining us and

28:31

our

28:32

seeing you in person thanks for the chat