Learning and applying “street fighting legal ops”
Our friend, David Curtain, founded Front Foot Law a couple of years ago.
Front Foot Law is an independent legal practice specializing in legal operations and short term staffing. The business has its roots in the problem that most in-house legal teams are drowning in work, impacting the businesses they service and the wellbeing of the lawyers. David explained to me that Front Foot Law helps in-house legal teams overcome these challenges by:
placing secondee lawyers, legal operations specialists and paralegals; and
offering legal operations advice and support.
Recently, David launched a series of self-paced courses on his Front Foot Academy, which offers pragmatic and principled advice on how to improve legal operations.
We think this type of educational courses is an integral part of the innovation ecosystem that helps lawyers perform their jobs better. The old adage - “people, process, product” - have to be applied together in order to solve problems for lawyers.
We caught up with David to learn more about his “LinkedIn Learning style” course, and what he hopes to achieve.
“... fundamentally, it is an informational deficit that we are trying to address in the first instance. We have made it really practical. It is less academic. It is street fighting legal ops... what is this thing? How is it relevant to in-house legal teams? How do you do it? And what are the key things to be aware of?””
Transcript
so welcome to this chat everybody
0:02
um today we've got the pleasure of
0:03
talking to David Curtin who is the
0:05
founder and director of front foot law
0:07
David welcome
0:09
thanks Rose thanks for having me it's
0:11
been such a while since we've had a chat
0:13
and you've been doing a lot these last
0:15
couple of years you started
0:17
um the front foot law and now you've
0:19
just launched front foot Academy tell us
0:21
what you've been up to the last couple
0:23
of years and and what you've been
0:24
focused on doing my background as I
0:27
think you know was yeah originally in
0:29
law firms and then I spent 13 years in
0:31
various in-house legal teams and it was
0:34
sort of at the tail end of that time in
0:37
the house legal teams that I started to
0:38
have some more senior roles of leading a
0:41
legal function learning Regulatory
0:43
Compliance function and I started to
0:45
really experience firsthand some of the
0:47
pains
0:49
um of legal operations problems without
0:50
necessarily having the name legal
0:53
operations to apply to those and so it
0:55
was around then I got involved in
0:57
clock's first Australian
0:59
um Group which was at that stage mainly
1:01
gc's talking really openly for the first
1:03
time about the challenges that they were
1:05
experiencing and so for me personally
1:06
that was a point in time in the career I
1:09
suppose of feeling frustrated with
1:11
everything
1:12
um I was starting to experience a much
1:14
more collaborative constructive mindset
1:16
I then joined Lex foco which is an
1:19
Australian startup specializing in two
1:21
things Staffing and legal operations
1:23
embryonic um practice and then they were
1:27
acquired by LOD I left there and then
1:30
uh coming back to your question I think
1:33
I then started to
1:36
um continue to consult in legal
1:38
operations through the banner of front
1:39
foot law
1:41
um and so it was over that time of
1:44
Consulting for a couple of years to
1:45
mainly in-house teams
1:47
and then the early stages of front foot
1:50
law I just found that I was repeatedly
1:51
getting the same sort of questions from
1:53
people who were
1:55
typically in an in-house environment
1:57
super busy
1:59
um really capable people but often so
2:00
buried in work that they really didn't
2:02
even have time to think about
2:04
addressing some of the challenges that
2:06
they were experiencing which were
2:08
exactly the same challenges that I had
2:09
been experiencing and so
2:12
um
2:12
my one of my Solutions I suppose to try
2:15
and help people who are very busy and
2:17
don't have
2:18
a lot of bandwidth or resourcing
2:20
typically to tackle those problems was
2:22
to try and
2:25
address some of those questions in a
2:27
very accessible format which is taken
2:29
the form of front foot Academy which is
2:30
just launched last week so that's uh
2:33
that's a set of 10 modules of uh of
2:38
questions that when we survey general
2:39
counsel and other legal teams these were
2:41
the questions that they said they wanted
2:43
to know
2:44
the answers to it the most and so the
2:46
idea is to create really accessible very
2:49
practical guidance on these topics which
2:52
people can access in their own time at
2:54
their own speed and become a much more
2:56
informed purchaser and decider of what
3:00
they want to do in response to those
3:01
sorts of questions
3:03
like when people talk about legal Ops
3:04
it's kind of one slice of the kind of
3:08
legal services market and from a sort of
3:11
vendor perspective
3:13
it's wholly different trying to sell to
3:16
Big law small law in-house government
3:19
everyone has slightly different
3:21
characteristics so so who is front foot
3:24
Academy targeted towards
3:27
well we've taken an approach which is
3:29
deliberately principles based because
3:32
you're absolutely right yeah the market
3:34
is very diverse and the the set of
3:37
issues
3:39
facing for example
3:41
um a massive
3:43
us-based Corporation with a huge team of
3:46
legal operations people
3:48
uh quite different in one sense to the
3:51
issues facing a sole general counsel
3:53
working in a smaller
3:55
business let's say based in Australia
3:57
um
3:58
but if you sort of look at that more
4:00
closely I I think that the issues that
4:02
they are experiencing tend to manifest
4:05
in similar ways and they are that the
4:07
people involved
4:09
find that they're not focusing on the
4:11
right sort of work that they don't have
4:13
enough information about the quality of
4:15
the work that they're doing
4:17
they often experience challenges with
4:19
client relationships that manifests in
4:22
stress and feelings of being overwhelmed
4:24
and
4:26
um I think one of one of my areas I
4:29
suppose of Interest as well in this
4:31
space which is
4:32
less about productivity and more about
4:34
well-being is that you know there are
4:36
endemic issues in this industry around
4:38
well-being and in-house lawyers in
4:40
particular
4:40
um tend to face a an incessant flow of
4:44
work which which they typically have
4:46
challenges to to get on top of and so
4:49
the approach we've taken here is really
4:51
to sort of take a principles-based
4:52
approach and and it is to give people
4:55
principles that they can apply in
4:57
whatever context they're in whatever
4:58
level of resourcing they're in in
5:00
whatever location that they're in
5:03
um because those those issues are quite
5:06
capable of being addressed if you apply
5:10
similar logic and work through those
5:12
issues and and we can come back to this
5:14
perhaps if you like but we take the view
5:16
that it's very important to collect
5:18
information about the specific
5:19
circumstances you're in it's not one
5:21
size fits all it's you've got to be
5:23
really clear on what exactly are the
5:26
problems that we're trying to solve in
5:27
this specific situation and why are they
5:30
important because you can't solve
5:32
everything
5:33
and so you need to be clear on what's
5:35
Happening how often is it happening what
5:36
are the impacts of those things how
5:38
material are those impacts and what's
5:40
their main ability to being fixed you
5:42
know there's certain things just going
5:43
to be so deeply entrenched that doesn't
5:44
make sense to start with those that you
5:46
might get to them later on
5:47
but typically there are other situations
5:49
where other other issues where you can
5:51
say okay well this is happening all the
5:54
time it's impacting people significantly
5:56
it's it's affecting the organization as
5:59
well as the legal team
6:00
and it's within reach so that's the sort
6:03
of thing which makes sense for us to
6:05
start with and then that may lay the
6:06
foundations for more complex initiatives
6:09
where you need more cross-functional
6:10
collaboration or you might be more
6:12
budget or you might need other forms of
6:14
support from other people who
6:15
sometimes need to see the early winds to
6:18
to get on board and to support things
6:19
which is often the first time they will
6:22
have seen a legal function driving
6:24
change in this way legal teams and I say
6:27
this is a as a lawyer are often great at
6:29
supporting change but they're often most
6:31
comfortable and familiar with leading
6:33
change and so even equipping people with
6:35
their tools to to lead that process and
6:37
have the confidence to say okay this is
6:39
what we're doing we know we're doing
6:40
this for the right reasons because we've
6:41
looked at the data and
6:44
um and having the conversation with
6:45
people to say this is what we think and
6:47
being open to challenge and being open
6:48
to discussion and hopefully achieving
6:50
alignment to go forward with those
6:52
initiatives
6:53
it's almost like you're preempting my
6:55
final question because my final question
6:57
what's going to be what's your nugget of
6:59
wisdom and and it's like here it is
7:01
right 10 minutes from the end you've got
7:04
your nugget of wisdom
7:06
um something you said to me
7:07
just now is really interesting and and
7:09
it resonated with me because
7:11
um in the product world that I live in
7:15
um we're very much focused on falling in
7:17
love with a problem right like stop
7:19
trying to push Solutions find the
7:22
problem and then go and solve it instead
7:24
of like having these preconceived ideas
7:27
um and and I think what's interesting is
7:31
if you try and fit that in the broader
7:35
sort of advice that people often give in
7:37
this space they often say solving these
7:40
sorts of problems is all about
7:42
um people
7:44
um process and product or technology
7:47
depending on who you talk to
7:50
um and in your experience
7:52
um and let's talk specifically about
7:54
this Academy product that you're
7:56
offering
7:58
um where are you focusing what skills
8:01
are you trying to enhance in the
8:03
audience
8:04
so I I think fundamentally it's an
8:07
informational deficit that we're trying
8:09
to address in the first instance so
8:11
we've made it really practical and it's
8:14
probably you know it's less academic and
8:17
it's more street fighting legal Ops I
8:19
would say
8:20
so it's you know it's looking at each of
8:24
these topics and and knowing that people
8:26
out there who are really experienced
8:30
people who
8:31
fantastic technically with legal skills
8:34
and other skills that have got them to
8:35
their positions for example if they're
8:36
GCS they've got
8:38
a lot of capabilities which have got
8:40
them to that position but there are
8:42
areas where they haven't had a chance or
8:44
they haven't for whatever reason
8:46
got familiar with these other issues so
8:48
we say in each of these situations what
8:50
is this thing
8:52
um how is it relevant to in-house legal
8:53
teams how do you do it and what are the
8:56
key things to be aware of and then at
8:57
the end of each module people get a
8:58
cheat sheet to summarize the key
9:00
takeaways because
9:01
again for busy people I think it's
9:03
really important to to give them an easy
9:07
um ready reckoner some sort of reminder
9:09
of the things that they need to take
9:11
away again at that principles level so
9:13
in this case we're we're not saying
9:16
here's watch the video and we'll solve
9:18
all your problems it's it's more about
9:20
okay you've heard about
9:22
legal change management or you've heard
9:24
about knowledge management or process
9:26
Improvement but but what is that exactly
9:27
and I think your point well made is that
9:30
some of these terms can become nebulous
9:32
and they'll become almost become a bit
9:33
meaningless because they get thrown
9:34
around and they become
9:36
empty and so we're really trying to peel
9:37
back the layers and say okay what
9:39
exactly is this and and also looking at
9:41
the situation of In-House legal teams
9:43
back to your point of different people
9:45
with different profiles of resourcing
9:47
and needs
9:49
um so your typical legal function
9:51
doesn't have the ability to have change
9:52
managers on call or you know ux
9:55
designers available to them or huge
9:58
teams of people who can just be sort of
9:59
mobilized at the click of a fingers to
10:01
to solve someone's latest thought bubble
10:03
so they've got to be really selective
10:04
they're going to have to scratch and
10:06
scrounge for whatever resourcing they
10:07
can get access to which includes
10:09
the skill sets they might need to borrow
10:11
from other teams or they might need to
10:13
get help externally it includes
10:15
Financial Resources obviously budget and
10:18
even just getting permission to change
10:19
certain things so if they start looking
10:21
at a tech stack
10:23
um that triggers all sorts of
10:24
sensitivities around data privacy and
10:26
security and even you know the big
10:28
question for most legal themes is
10:29
getting anywhere near the front of the
10:31
queue
10:33
um jostling for position with Revenue
10:34
generating functions
10:36
and so against that that backdrop of
10:38
okay we know that's your reality we know
10:41
you don't have access to all these
10:42
things so how do you do this thing
10:44
notwithstanding that it's going to be
10:46
hard for you to access
10:47
the full Suite of resources that someone
10:50
um another function for example a sales
10:52
function or an operational function may
10:54
be able to access more readily because
10:55
the principles
10:57
project management to grab an example
10:59
they absolutely apply and if you want to
11:01
successfully manage a project whatever
11:03
it is it could be something as small as
11:04
a complex piece of legal work or it
11:06
could be something as big as a huge
11:07
technology change or a massive process
11:10
Improvement change
11:12
you've got to manage that project
11:13
somehow but they don't have project
11:14
managers on hand so you know so what are
11:16
the principles that you need to be to
11:18
apply what are the key roles you need to
11:20
fill and what are the key sorts of
11:22
things you need to do by way of
11:24
documenting your scope and then managing
11:27
variations to the scope and then taking
11:29
stakeholders on the on the journey for
11:32
documenting changes and making sure that
11:33
everyone maintains alignment and then
11:35
what you do when the project finishes by
11:36
way of
11:37
some form of review to look back and
11:39
work out well what do we achieve our
11:41
goals did we not achieve our goals what
11:43
what else do we know now and what sort
11:44
of information should we carry forward
11:46
into
11:47
other projects so that others can have
11:49
the benefit of the work that's gone
11:50
before them
11:53
um and I think one phrase one phrase you
11:55
said today was my takeaway phrase and
11:57
that was street fighting legal Ops
12:01
um it's my favorite catchphrase I may
12:03
even put that as a title
12:06
um so so in the spirit of street
12:09
fighting legal Ops what is your kind of
12:11
final word that you might leave the
12:14
audience with so that they can take it
12:17
away and and you know win their next
12:19
street fight
12:21
I think if I could offer one suggestion
12:24
it would really be for people to
12:27
you know I think you touched on the the
12:29
issue of people you know rushing to
12:31
Solutions
12:33
um in the product development context in
12:35
particular falling in love with the
12:36
problem and I think it is really
12:37
important I often feel that this is a an
12:39
area where I have to push back on
12:41
clients a bit to say okay I know you
12:43
think you want to buy this particular
12:44
technology but can we just talk
12:46
about what's actually happening in the
12:48
team at the moment and and there's often
12:50
this yeah it's a contrary mindset to to
12:53
an in-house legal function because
12:55
you're expected to have answers off the
12:57
cuff uh in a high pressure situation you
13:00
expect it to be results oriented and you
13:02
know forward-focusing and all those
13:04
other
13:05
sort of um cliches that get thrown
13:07
around but you know but but really you
13:09
have to fight that and say okay I'm not
13:11
going to jump to conclusions
13:13
I think I know these things but I'm
13:14
going to test that knowledge I'm going
13:16
to talk to not only I'm going to look
13:17
outside of my own mindset I'm going to
13:19
talk to others in my team everyone's got
13:21
their own experience and their own
13:22
perspective
13:23
and talk to your clients as well and
13:25
find out what they say and so we often
13:27
start with some interviews and surveys
13:31
of people to just understand what
13:33
actually is their current situation
13:35
what's working well what are the
13:37
challenges that they're facing what's
13:39
the materiality of those things and then
13:40
that is a great platform to say okay
13:43
now we've looked at this we're not
13:44
working off hunches we actually have
13:46
some data to back this up and you can do
13:47
that pretty quickly
13:49
um and then it just gives you the
13:50
confidence to go forward and say okay
13:52
work should we thought that was going to
13:53
be this but now we can see that a more
13:54
logical way to tackle this solution we
13:56
want to get to that outcome but we know
13:59
that over the next three six nine 12
14:01
months it's going to look like this
14:03
um and the change management piece you
14:05
know there's the the other question of
14:07
changing anything is inherently complex
14:09
people resisted uh they the first
14:11
question in their mind when they are
14:12
presented with something new is what's
14:13
in this for me
14:15
um which is human nature and you've got
14:16
to have a compelling answer to that to
14:18
be able to get people
14:20
to support and adopt the initiatives
14:23
that you're
14:24
proposing so that would be the things I
14:26
would probably suggest is that the
14:28
principles that apply to any context is
14:31
to you know have a good
14:32
grasp of what's actually happening at
14:34
the moment and to be really mindful of
14:36
the of the change process so that you
14:37
move at a pace which is going to be
14:38
manageable and it will get you
14:40
closer to your end State because the if
14:43
you don't do that well then
14:44
unfortunately it can create new 40-year
14:47
problems that you have to start with
14:48
which can become quite murky and complex
14:51
and can actually really undermine a
14:54
change process because people
14:56
um can get lost at the first turn if it
14:58
doesn't happen well
15:01
that's brilliant thank you very much for
15:03
sharing that
15:04
um I am
15:06
I think it's it's one of those pieces of
15:08
advice that
15:10
um people know but they don't often act
15:14
on
15:15
um and it's wonderful to get that
15:16
reminder
15:18
um so thank you very much for spending
15:19
the time with us today
15:21
um for the audience again uh go and
15:23
visit frontfootacademy.com it looks
15:25
amazing and uh David
15:28
um thank you very much for joining us I
15:30
hope we get a chance to chat again very
15:31
soon alright associate horror thanks for
15:33
having me it was a pleasure to catch up
15:34
with you again and all the best with the
15:36
next steps for Cynthia
15:38
thank you
