Designing automation software for lawyers and their workflow
For our first blog post, we had the pleasure to speak with our friend and the Head of Growth for Avvoka, Giles Thompson.
We wanted this conversation centered on the topics of “making software easy for lawyers to use” and “making a tool that works across the whole transaction lifecycle“. During our unscripted conversation, we covered a few other fascinating topics with Giles, including:
taking design inspiration from consumer software
the importance of legal experts in creating “playbooks”
how data analysis and insights can help with legal drafting
why don’t lawyers “iterate” like technologists?
making sure there is return on investment for any software purchase
Among the many nuggets of wisdom from Giles, this one about preparing playbooks was one of our favorites:
“… what we find a lot of the time is that where our clients really succeed when it comes to playbooks is where they’ve got great internal people who have taken the time to put together the templates, put really clear drafting instructions in them, and actually come up with different permutations of different clauses, so you know, when a deal happened, they have gone away and taken the time to say, ooh, that was some interesting drafting from the counterparty, or actually that custom drafting we did is going to be useful later…”
Take a look at the whole recording of our conversation in this video:
Transcript of conversation
(Note: transcript is automatically generated, and may contain misspellings and typographical errors)
00:00
today's guest is giles from
00:02
avoca
00:03
he is the head of growth and he is an
00:06
absolute whiz when it comes to document
00:09
automation
00:10
so we're very pleased to have you girls
00:12
we'd love to
00:13
hear a little bit about you maybe a 30
00:15
second snippet of who you are
00:16
in your own words yeah so
00:19
uh john thompson head of a growth uh
00:21
vodka um
00:23
and what i do is basically a bit of
00:25
sales marketing partnerships and
00:27
actually a bit of education
00:29
of document automation software um our
00:31
document automation software is
00:33
different um because it allows you to go
00:36
through the whole um
00:37
life cycle of a contract to a document
00:39
so all the way from automation
00:41
collaboration negotiation and execution
00:43
all in one place
00:45
um and in addition we are extremely
00:47
powerful as a platform
00:49
and also uh very intuitive to use so you
00:51
don't need
00:52
an engineering degree in computer
00:54
science uh in order to use the platform
00:56
but me my my background is as a lawyer
00:59
and i trained at herbert's in three
01:00
hills and
01:01
then later worked at kirkland and dallas
01:03
but anyway here i am in legal tech
01:04
battling away with you horus you're one
01:07
of the many
01:08
and we're happy to have you two things
01:11
stood out when when you're talking just
01:12
now and
01:13
and i really didn't realize this until
01:15
you're talking about it
01:16
first is the idea of document automation
01:19
not just for the first draft but for the
01:20
entire life cycle
01:22
that is pretty unique i rarely hear
01:25
about that
01:26
and the second thing i don't remember so
01:28
i'm going to come back to it after maybe
01:30
we explore the first point
01:31
um tell me more about this whole idea of
01:34
like document automation as a as a life
01:36
cycle
01:37
and the second point i just remembered
01:39
is the ease of use
01:40
love to hear about that sure
01:43
well i mean i i think essentially the
01:45
idea is that
01:47
you know rinsing and repeating uh
01:49
document automation for
01:50
that first rough and ready draft of a
01:52
document has been around since well
01:56
people know who who's been uh releasing
01:58
that software and actually that was an
02:00
amazing revolution within legal practice
02:02
however we see no reason why actually
02:04
that first sort of
02:05
rough and ready draft that's created
02:06
from a document automation tool
02:08
why there shouldn't be automation
02:10
actually in the middle of the
02:11
collaboration on that document perhaps
02:12
in a private practice law firm
02:14
internally between colleagues and to say
02:16
you know say you're
02:17
doing an employment agreement and you're
02:18
speaking to your pensions colleagues and
02:20
they've marked up some bespoke drafting
02:22
but then halfway through that the client
02:24
rings you up and says hang on we need
02:25
to you know moderate modify this
02:27
incentive scheme
02:28
what you can do is you can go back to
02:30
your you know your questionnaire or your
02:31
initial set of responses you give to
02:33
draft the document
02:34
change one of your fundamental deal
02:36
variables and then all of the
02:37
changes are made in the document as you
02:39
go and actually one of the beauty as
02:41
well is when it comes to negotiation
02:43
if it's a sales person or someone who's
02:45
using the software
02:46
and they get pushed back against um by
02:49
their counterparty what they can do is
02:50
go back to the questionnaire
02:52
and instead of choosing for example you
02:53
know harsh confidentiality provision
02:55
they can go to go for neutral or even
02:57
counterparty friendly um confidentiality
02:59
provision so it allows for that
03:01
playbooking and very strategic um
03:03
commercial outcome driven way of uh
03:05
way of way of drafting uh but also
03:08
automating those negotiations
03:10
the second question was about the ease
03:12
of use and how have you designed it so
03:14
that it is easy for lawyers to use
03:16
so i mean essentially uh by
03:20
you know it's speaking to as many people
03:21
who aren't are aren't lawyers actually
03:23
um and just you know random people and
03:26
saying here's the software and
03:27
essentially running the granny test um
03:29
you know you know if you're a granny and
03:32
i've you know
03:32
this is no i'm not crafting as versions
03:34
that granny's here it works for
03:35
grandfather
03:36
but it works for grandfathers as well um
03:39
you know or people who just aren't as
03:40
familiar with technology you know if
03:41
they pick this up
03:43
um how are they going to find it and you
03:45
know actually
03:46
you know the founders have been quite
03:47
open about saying you know ask all the
03:49
relatives
03:50
parents um does this make sense to you
03:52
as someone who's not in this world
03:54
um and hopefully the answer is yes and
03:57
also being truly no code as opposed to
03:59
low code and so thinking really
04:00
carefully about
04:01
the way that you can make things simple
04:03
so choosing the right colors for
04:05
highlighting the bespoke
04:06
uh parts of documents and the bits which
04:08
needs to be customized every time
04:09
there's a new draft
04:10
and making it intuitive in that way as
04:12
well and you know just making it look
04:13
attractive so that
04:15
students can students can use it but
04:18
also appeal to them as well
04:20
yeah it's it's really kind of special
04:22
this idea of designing for people who
04:24
may not be
04:26
the primary user because if the
04:29
general population can use it then the
04:32
primary user
04:33
would very likely i think benefit from
04:35
the improved designs
04:37
so did you draw inspiration from like
04:39
consumer-based
04:40
software how did you come up with this
04:42
sort of philosophy
04:44
well i mean i i can't take too much
04:47
personal credit but
04:48
i know i know that when when a vodka was
04:50
founded um
04:51
the the the this sort of awareness that
04:54
had of the competitors that it
04:56
was soon going to find out about was
04:57
very limited and actually quite naive
04:59
so we weren't basing it on
05:03
uh you know contract express hot docks a
05:05
lot of the incumbents at that point in
05:07
time
05:08
we were actually starting from scratch
05:09
and you know what what
05:11
what the you know the team knew about
05:12
was consumer software and that's what we
05:14
used that we know we
05:16
the founders david and elliot came from
05:17
commercial law so
05:19
they weren't experienced coders or or or
05:21
sort of
05:22
in that world so essentially yeah the
05:24
inspiration was from consumer software
05:26
that
05:26
that that we you know everyone in the
05:28
team was using um
05:30
yeah so that that's really how that
05:31
happened and actually
05:33
um it's been quite nice coming at it
05:35
from a different angle because we never
05:36
would have come at it from such a
05:37
different a unique angle had we known
05:39
about our competitors
05:40
right at the very beginning we probably
05:42
would have converged on what they were
05:44
doing just because
05:45
that's what you know that's what people
05:46
tend to do
05:48
it's you know you say converge and i
05:50
think
05:51
i don't know if you've made this
05:52
observation about the legal tech market
05:54
but there is a sort of convergence where
05:56
everyone copies everyone else
05:58
um and it's very rare to hear this sort
06:00
of like fresh injection from a different
06:02
perspective
06:03
um and and so let's kind of merge the
06:06
two points that we've been floating
06:07
around right this idea of
06:09
um making it easy for lawyers to use and
06:11
this idea of
06:12
making available for the entire life
06:14
cycle um
06:17
a lot of conversations i've been having
06:18
recently with people center around this
06:21
idea of playbooks
06:23
and that's more so for the corporate
06:25
market i think than for the private
06:26
practice market
06:28
um and so in in your view
06:32
how how are we improving on
06:36
playbooks or how can we improve on the
06:38
current state of play
06:40
of playbooks so that i mean so that's
06:42
really interesting and just before i
06:43
answer that question really directly i'm
06:45
just going to say
06:45
the top hit website other than a website
06:48
page on our website other than
06:50
the home page is how are we different um
06:53
and i think it just goes to show that
06:55
actually you know although we've made
06:56
our best efforts people still in the
06:58
document automation market
07:00
are desperate to see uh points of
07:01
difference between um providers so
07:03
hopefully our web page uh does that for
07:06
people
07:06
i i i i thought that was really
07:08
interesting actually you know markets
07:10
with 800 people in there
07:12
you know in it and i thought that was
07:13
really interesting but going to your
07:15
point on playbooks
07:16
um well i think it's i think it's really
07:19
tough for me to answer that because
07:20
actually
07:21
we're a technology company and what we
07:24
find a lot of the time is
07:25
where our clients um really succeed when
07:28
it comes to fabrics is where they've got
07:30
great internal people who um who have
07:32
taken the time
07:33
to actually put together the templates
07:35
and put really clear drafting
07:36
instructions in them and actually
07:38
come up with different um permutations
07:41
of different causes so you know when a
07:42
particular deal happens
07:44
they've gone away and taken the time to
07:45
think oh actually that was some
07:46
interesting drafting from the
07:47
counterparty or actually
07:48
that custom draft thing we did was going
07:50
to be useful later so those sort of you
07:52
know i don't want to say
07:53
i don't i don't think it's diligent i
07:54
think i think it's more forward-thinking
07:56
people
07:57
who are building up those um templates
07:59
that that's the
08:00
that's the recipe for a really
08:01
successful playbook but actually
08:04
i think the other point where we we can
08:06
help them do help some of our clients is
08:08
the data point
08:09
um actually if you can run analytics
08:11
over the draft contract
08:13
so that you're you know you're drafting
08:14
collaborating and then
08:16
fundamentally then executing them and
08:18
that's really useful because you can
08:20
actually flag
08:20
elements where you're getting lots of
08:22
pushback and perhaps even just causing
08:24
confusion
08:25
and and that's a really good way of
08:27
influencing you going forward so i think
08:29
you need those people who afford looking
08:30
and have taken the time to put together
08:32
great templates
08:33
um you know ahead of time but actually
08:35
once you're there
08:37
you know yeah having data insights in
08:39
order to actually improve that based on
08:40
data and iterate
08:42
uh to use a techie term is really
08:43
important i love that i love that
08:46
and we don't i think lawyers never ever
08:49
talk about the word iterate i don't
08:50
think i ever came across that word in my
08:52
entire career as a lawyer right
08:54
and then the moment you leave you start
08:55
hanging out with tech people
08:57
every second conversation is let's
08:59
iterate
09:00
let's iterate on that and and it's it's
09:02
such a different
09:03
approach um i don't know i mean maybe
09:07
let's meander with this conversation a
09:09
little bit right because i remember back
09:10
in law school
09:11
there was this idea of laws based on
09:14
precedence
09:15
and and when there is change it's
09:17
incremental changes it's kind of these
09:19
tiny little shifts
09:22
and it's only made by people who have
09:24
power and authority
09:26
you know you would have to be a supreme
09:28
court judge or high court judge before
09:29
you can say yep this is new law we're
09:31
going to increment
09:33
you don't do that as a junior lawyer you
09:35
can't go hey let's iterate this because
09:38
i think people feel like well you
09:40
haven't earned it you haven't
09:42
got the right to change existing
09:44
traditional practices
09:47
and maybe that's the detriment of the
09:49
market and this is all just kind of like
09:51
you know random thoughts at the moment
09:54
have you
09:55
come across this sort of attitude this
09:57
kind of resistance to change and
09:59
transformation
10:01
it is i mean there's a lot of
10:03
interesting points um back there but i
10:05
think one of them is also
10:06
whether we characterize it as resistance
10:08
or pragmatism
10:09
because actually where you're in it and
10:11
it's almost it's almost a rational
10:12
choice point isn't it
10:14
uh where you have you know that the
10:16
other people are going to behave in a
10:18
certain way within the situation so
10:19
i'll use the example of um people using
10:22
our software
10:23
to uh collaborate and negotiate with
10:26
with counterparties now
10:28
the people who have the most success
10:29
doing that it won't surprise you to hear
10:30
those that have good leverage
10:32
against their counterparty um so you
10:35
know it's very much you know
10:36
you will just use the platform or
10:38
otherwise you're not doing business with
10:39
us and that works really effectively
10:41
um the other element to that is yeah i
10:43
think people are quite realistic and
10:45
they know that
10:46
lawyers who are often very um
10:49
adversarial in nature
10:51
if you know that the decide when you ask
10:54
them to collaborate on a particular
10:55
platform is going to see it as a
10:56
as a flight or or as a one-up and you
10:59
know that they're going to behave that
11:00
way rather than thinking oh actually
11:01
this is a new thing to try
11:02
well actually maybe you're just being
11:04
pragmatic um in
11:06
in not trying to shift the dial there so
11:08
i think there's an element of that
11:10
but actually on that point we're hoping
11:12
that that's going to change where we've
11:14
actually partnered with
11:15
the loan market association and alan
11:16
ovary
11:18
on approach on a project yeah so yeah
11:20
we're really excited about it to
11:22
automate all of their standard form
11:23
templates and and what that's going to
11:26
mean is
11:27
hopefully all of their members are gonna
11:29
get used to our platform and that means
11:30
that it's left of that kind of
11:32
power play when you send um a document
11:35
via a vodka
11:36
if that makes sense and i think the
11:37
other point as well that you you mention
11:39
around kind of iteration
11:40
i think it's really interesting because
11:42
iteration is really relevant when you're
11:44
talking about the minimum viable product
11:46
of something
11:47
and i think it it probably doesn't
11:49
translate when it comes to advice
11:51
and that's really tricky because you
11:52
can't just say here's our minimum
11:54
minimum viable product advice we've done
11:56
a bit of research but this isn't all
11:58
like completely
11:59
uh bulletproof uh because i can't say
12:02
well i i just want a bullet-proof piece
12:04
of advice i don't want your initial
12:05
thoughts
12:06
you know and actually maybe you know
12:08
clients will say actually no we do want
12:10
your initial shorts and then you know if
12:11
you want to cover your
12:12
your bottom afterwards you're more than
12:13
welcome to um and actually
12:16
and actually one of the ways that's come
12:17
up for us is with our collaboration
12:19
functionality
12:20
i i do wonder whether lawyers are going
12:22
to want their clients to be able to see
12:25
how they're marking up and negotiating
12:27
in real time yeah
12:28
and because ultimately that is you know
12:30
drafting it as we all know is an
12:32
iterative process and it's also
12:34
part of a team you know one person in
12:36
the team does it and then the other
12:38
person in the team iterates so lawyers
12:39
are used to iterating but
12:41
just in a different context i love it
12:44
that is that's a
12:45
far more in-depth answer than i was
12:47
expecting for a
12:48
pretty random thought that came out of
12:50
the word iteration
12:54
you obviously have thought a lot about
12:55
this and i love it like i mean
12:57
as your in your role as the head of
12:59
growth you have to really understand the
13:01
customers you have to really understand
13:03
the market
13:04
and you mentioned briefly earlier that
13:06
you do a lot of interviews you talk to
13:07
people both in and outside
13:09
of the legal market and and so maybe
13:13
like i know this kind of chat's going on
13:14
for a little bit maybe we can end it
13:16
with a little nugget
13:17
what do you think is the most
13:22
unexpected observation you've made in
13:24
the last 12 months
13:25
about either the market or people
13:28
outside the market or the use of
13:29
software that help
13:30
lawyers what's the most unexpected thing
13:35
so yeah horace maybe this shouldn't have
13:36
been unexpected for me but it was
13:38
actually the realization that some
13:39
clients when you're talking about
13:40
pricing and
13:41
and how they should pay for your product
13:43
um some clients actually
13:45
prefer to pay more in some context and
13:48
i'll unpack that a bit
13:49
it's essentially clients really care
13:52
about
13:52
value when you're offering them software
13:54
and i think that should be obvious but
13:56
actually
13:57
what wasn't obvious to me was sometimes
13:59
um
14:00
where a client can actually derive value
14:02
from the exact product they're getting
14:04
and their their ultimate output they're
14:06
actually sometimes
14:07
uh more willing to pay more money um if
14:10
if they can have that link between the
14:12
two
14:12
not only because it helps them when
14:13
they're ultimately charging for those
14:15
goods and services
14:16
um on the off to their ultimate clients
14:19
but also because
14:20
you know everybody feels better about
14:22
what they're paying um if they know that
14:24
their certainty and they're certainly
14:25
going to be getting value
14:27
if they're going to be paying you know
14:28
you know 50 or whatever unit you're
14:30
using versus
14:31
40 whatever unit you're using um you
14:34
know it's different if they know that
14:35
they're getting the value
14:36
for that 50 as opposed to that 40 where
14:38
they may not be getting the value but it
14:40
might be fixed and it might be lower the
14:41
price
14:43
is it sort of like this idea of based on
14:46
how they want to get from a to b you can
14:49
then say well
14:50
here's a difference in service and
14:51
therefore here's the difference in
14:52
pricing
14:54
yeah i think i think for me my
14:57
understanding from when i've had these
14:58
conversations
14:58
is essentially clients don't mind paying
15:02
for a product like ours where they know
15:04
that they're going to be making
15:06
you know more gain and more sort of
15:09
efficiency gain than they're going to be
15:10
paying
15:11
in any scenario where they're paying you
15:12
a single penny um and i think that's the
15:15
key that's the key point if they know
15:16
that if they know that they're receiving
15:18
an invoice from you
15:19
they can save themselves well actually
15:21
times that by
15:22
you know four times is what we've
15:24
generated in terms of savings and
15:26
you know additional um cost saving there
15:28
so i think it's that that reassurance
15:30
that makes people very willing to pay
15:32
and the lack of an opportunity for there
15:34
to be a dead cost
15:35
yeah i love it i love it it's all roi
15:37
it's all value
15:39
and and it kind of goes back to one of
15:41
the core themes of this
15:42
blog and and that is how do technology
15:45
help
15:45
and and always we have to think about
15:47
well how much does it cost
15:49
um and and is it actually value for
15:52
money
15:53
that's brilliant thank you so much for
15:54
that
